Executive Producers David Greenwalt & Jim Kouf Talk "Grimm"

By Lynn Tackitt

GrimmDavid Greenwalt and Jim Kouf have worked together for over 30 years and have had such hits as Buffy: The Vampire Slayer, Angel, National Treasure, and Rush Hour, among others over their long careers. They have taken time out their schedule to have a very enlightening interview on their new show Grimm, airing on Friday nights.

David and Jim touched base on a little of the background of the show, without giving away too much, about things to come and the news of getting to do 22 episodes instead of 13.

NBC Conference Call
David Greenwalt and Jim Kouf
Executive Producers of Grimm

January 26, 2012
12:30 pm CT

GrimQUESTION: Congratulations on your terrific show, and on the ratings for this last week. I hear it was the highest since early November.


DAVID GREENWALT: We're pretty excited. People came to the party. It was very fun.

QUESTION: Anything you might be able to announce about a Season 2 today?

JIM KOUF: I wish.

DAVID GREENWALT: Well, we've got plenty of mythology waiting for Season 2, and we've got plenty of good things to happen. So you know, as soon as we get it we'll know.

QUESTION: How many more episodes do we get this season?

JIM KOUF: We got a back nine.

DAVID GREENWALT: We have a back nine, so we'll do 22 total this season, and we're shooting one - the 16th episode as we speak.

QUESTION: Last week we started hearing about the group of those who do not approve of Monroe helping Nick. Are we going to be hearing a lot more about them?

DAVID GREENWALT: There will be some issues with that coming up for sure.

QUESTION: Anything you want to tell us about?

DAVID GREENWALT: Well, it's going to fold over into the next year, some of these troubles that haunt him.

JIM KOUF: This is - yes, it's a pretty deep mythology, so it - there's - we're just cracking the surface right now. Some of that will become more apparent in the episodes that are coming up here very soon.

QUESTION: Real quick, I have a friend who lives in Germany who loves the show but totally cracks up at the names you give the creatures.


QUESTION: Yes. Yes. He says they don't always work, so he [wanted] me to ask you where you come with the names.

JIM KOUF: We make them up.

DAVID GREENWALT: We make them up, but sometimes we use a dictionary. But we make them up sort of.

JIM KOUF: And sometimes they're not supposed to be a direct translation of what the creature is. Sometimes it's a direct translation, and other times we're just putting together what we think the personality of the creature is. It'll be odd combinations.

QUESTION: I'll pass that along to him. Be assured that you're tickling the people in Germany.


Yes, I think it opens in Germany pretty soon, but I'm not sure. Do they have it already?

QUESTION: No. Somehow or another they're - yes.


QUESTION: (Unintelligible) actual transmissions, yes. Absolutely.

JIM KOUF: iTunes.


QUESTION: We're very, very thrilled with the show. In fact, when I saw it at Comic-Con, I knew it would really do well, and I'm very pleased that the ratings are holding up.


JIM KOUF: Thank you.

QUESTION: In fact we're thrilled, and the fans are of course. So the [Joss] Whedon-based fans are very thrilled. They love seeing every new show, and the writing is extremely good. It's very important to us.

In fact, we opened up questions to our readers, and the first person to post a question was...asking, since Joss has done so much directing and writing episodes for other shows, have you thought about seeing if he'd like to do a one-off for your show?

DAVID GREENWALT: That son of a bitch! He's got to come do one for us. And you know as soon as I saw Joss at - this is David. I saw Joss at Comic-Con and didn't even think to - I mean, of course we would love to have him write, direct, or do craft service you know.

JIM KOUF: He's done a little bit (unintelligible)...

QUESTION: I think if you can get him on, I've got a few people who will do the craft service for you for free.

JIM KOUF: He's free. He's pretty good with a bagel, I'm telling you.

QUESTION: Well, that'll be lovely to know that you're going to try.

And then we have..."Did you guys expect Monroe to take off as [the] break out character he's become?"


JIM KOUF: (Unintelligible) has done good.

DAVID GREENWALT: I think yes, we kind of did. Because when we first wrote it and we realized we were on to something tremendous, and when we got Silas Wier Mitchell to play him - he's just such an interesting character with a different slant. And in a way, he's more human than the human characters, you know, because he's fighting his inner demons so forcefully.

JIM KOUF: Yes. He also gets exactly what we're going for with the character. Silas is just on the money.

DAVID GREENWALT: So we like to think of them all as break out characters, you know.

QUESTION: We understand that.

And then..."Will it turn out that Nick has not been a true Grimm as he approaches the job like a police detective rather than as a Grimm is supposed to be, which is the [Boogie Man]...of monsters?"

DAVID GREENWALT: Well, it's a really good question, and Nick will develop into some - he is not your average, everyday Grimm, and he does operate differently than some Grimm's have traditionally operated. And, we'll learn more about that as - this very season.

QUESTION: Great, because that's what we're looking forward to is back story. After all, your fans have been trained to always know that there's back story, and the back story can always change.


QUESTION: The show seems to be moving from a monster of the week format to a show with a larger mythology. Was this the plan all along, or did you work it out as you went?

And this seems similar to the way Buffy and Angel developed. Did you have these shows in mind while planning the story, and/or how has working on supernatural shows influenced your work on Grimm?

JIM KOUF: That's a lot of questions.

DAVID GREENWALT: That's three questions. I can barely hold my coffee.

Let me see if we can answer and then you remind us if we don't answer.


DAVID GREENWALT: It was kind of the plan all along to bring in more mythology as we get deeper in the series, but we don't want to bring in so much that your average everyday viewer can't just watch a show and have the - so there'll certainly be a case of the week if not a monster of the week every time. But in these back nine, you're going to see a lot more of the personal and back stories of everybody.

JIM KOUF: We're going to start revealing stuff.

DAVID GREENWALT: And I can't even remember what the plan was on Buffy and Angel. But, I'm sure there was a plan.

QUESTION: Do you find that your experience working on other supernatural shows influences the way that you work - approached Grimm?

DAVID GREENWALT: This is David. Kind of yes and no. I mean obviously those were great experiences with great people, but you know working with my old partner Jim again - and when I say old - we do it a little differently. We do it one inch at a time you know. We just start at the beginning and move forward you know.

Although, we do have a little bible of the overarching mythology and where we think we're going in years to come. So the answer to that question is kind of a yes and no thing. It's just - you know, Grimm is its own creature and has its own kind of set of rules. But I love it when there's an emotional resonance in the stories.

QUESTION: Are we going to see any of the creatures that we've seen already? Like perhaps Holly, who was the wild child, or Roddy the Reinigen? Will we see any of them come in later episodes - come back?

JIM KOUF: We hope so.

DAVID GREENWALT: Yes, we certainly hope so? And if not this year, next year.


DAVID GREENWALT: We'd love to do like a Dirty Dozen episode.

JIM KOUF: You'll see there's some recurring characters coming up in the next episode. Not necessarily those, but from other episodes they're recurring.

QUESTION: We love the introduction of the female characters in the supernatural theme. I think since Buffy we haven't really seen that. So we really want to focus on how important was it to you to bring in a female character with Brie Turner on the show?

DAVID GREENWALT: Really important to us, and she's got a great role. And you know, she's going to help balance out the power table there.

JIM KOUF: We also have some great female actors coming up too.

DAVID GREENWALT: Yes. There's an episode coming up in February called ("Terentella") which - where Amy Acker has a great role. Amy Acker from Angel days...I mean, excuse me, in Dollhouse. And we're really excited about that.

And then you know, Valarie Cruz is in a show called Organ Grinder, which is coming I think a week from Friday.


DAVID GREENWALT: So we - we like to have Nick fight those women.

QUESTION: I love the fact that Amy Acker is so tiny and petite. That's the way Sara Michelle Gellar was, but the "don't let that fool you" kind of mentality is what they bring to the show.

JIM KOUF: Yes. Don't let it fool you.

And also the female characters in the Grimm Fairy Tales, and all fairy tales, you know, some of them are some pretty bad women.

DAVID GREENWALT: Pretty formidable opponents.

QUESTION: There [have] been subtleties planted with Julia all season long, and you sense some type of foreshadowing. Is there a clear direction with her, since she's been so mysterious, and on a different level than a lot of the other characters?

DAVID GREENWALT: Well there's something pretty darn big coming for her for sure. And we - you know, we watch the - some of the blog site and Twitter and all this, and every - a lot of people have opinions of what she might be or what's to come. But we think we're going to surprise them.

QUESTION: That's great. You always got to keep them on their toes you know, and that's what we love about these kinds of shows, especially you know what Grimm brings to the table.


JIM KOUF: Yes. That's our job.

DAVID GREENWALT: That's the fun.

QUESTION: What's the biggest challenge In keeping Hank in the dark as to what's really going on?

DAVID GREENWALT: You need to have two explanations in most of the episodes of something that could've happened in the real world and something that, you know, is - has a Grimm story. So the biggest challenge is to have two explanations for everything.

And Hank's got a big thing coming this year too.

QUESTION: Two of the best shows this year have been shows based in science - in fantasy and in science fiction. Not science fiction, but fantasy and out worldly from Once Upon A Time to your show Grimm. What do you think it is about shows like that that still appeal to the normal TV viewer?

DAVID GREENWALT: Well two words from a business point of view; public domain.

And - but from a you know consumption point of view, people love these stories, and there's a reason they've been handed down, you know both in a written and in oral form for all these, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years and they still have an appeal. And we're you know not only taking old fairy tales and kind of fracturing them - for example, it's coming up in February where we're fracturing Hansel and Gretel and a very little known Japanese fairy tale, and a - what's that one with the lion? What do you all that?

JIM KOUF: Androcles and the Lion.

DAVID GREENWALT: But, we're also making sort of new fairy tales of what's going on today and putting it in a fairy tale context.

QUESTION: Wow. So you're going from several sources?

JIM KOUF: Oh, yes.

DAVID GREENWALT: Yes. Our - yes. Our conceit is that all the writers of fairy tales were in fact some kind of profilers.

QUESTION: How many stories did the Grimm Brothers actually write?

DAVID GREENWALT: It's about 205 that they wrote down, and you know they took them from various peasants and people. But, some of them are you know a little hard to adapt, like "The Sausage and the Donkey," you know.

QUESTION: I don't even want to ask.

DAVID GREENWALT: They're just like sausage and Donkey go to town and play music. So you know, they don't - not every single one lends itself to a great big episode.

QUESTION: When will they (mention to you all) about a second season?

DAVID GREENWALT: We don't know. Sometime between now and May, you know, but it looks not unpromising at this point.

QUESTION: My favorite episode so far has been the one with the Three Little Pigs because it was such a reverse on the actual, so are we going to see more episodes similar to that? Where you kind of dirty up the original?

DAVID GREENWALT: We are. We will see episodes in which you know, the kind of critters - we'll see a couple of those. As a matter of fact, the kind of critters who are generally you know downtrodden and have been you know, beaten down by stronger, badder critters you know will get their day in court.

QUESTION: Are we going to address the whole Captain with his Grimm royalty and stuff? Are [we] going to get that this season?

DAVID GREENWALT: We're going to get some of it. We're definitely getting some of it. You'll be seeing more of him up to all kinds of things.

QUESTION: In general, just about you guys, what is it about this genre that you enjoy writing about the most?

JIM KOUF: The freedom of it. We're not locked into you know reality. We can play with reality a little bit, which makes it more fun to write.

DAVID GREENWALT: And I love taking a procedural show and just having a guy turn into a Blutbad, you know, or a Bauerschwein. It's just so much fun because it feels like I'm watching a regular kind of procedural show and then suddenly there's critters.

JIM KOUF: We can also - it gives us the opportunity to explain human behavior in a very bizarre way.

DAVID GREENWALT: You know, the child molester is a Big Bad Wolf, et cetera.

We're going to explain war and famine and all the ills of the world. It's all because of these crazy critters out there.

QUESTION: If only it was that easy.

I have a question coming from Twitter actually. People are wondering, is Juliette officially Nick's fiancé yet?

JIM KOUF: Well, (unintelligible).


QUESTION: I was really impressed with the pilot. Just the whole style and look of the show. Who's responsible for that? Did you guys decide on a certain style? Sort of that ethereal, yet lush kind of feel to the visuals?



DAVID GREENWALT: Yes. We picked Portland for that reason, but we had great help from our Producer Steve Oster and the Director of the pilot Marc Buckland.

JIM KOUF: And Clark Mathis who shot the pilot.

DAVID GREENWALT: And Eades, who did the...

JIM KOUF: Construction design.

DAVID GREENWALT: (Unintelligible).

JIM KOUF: (Unintelligible).

DAVID GREENWALT: Who did the production design. So there was - it was pretty carefully thought out to get that look of the moss on the trees and the moss on the roves.

JIM KOUF: And Portland played a big role in that.


QUESTION: Well, it certainly does set the mood.

You spoke earlier about back stories. Are we going to get any more information about Marie's back story? What kind of situation she found herself in? I just always want to know more about that character.

JIM KOUF: Yes. It's coming up.

DAVID GREENWALT: You're going to learn more about her and the whole history of how this came to be, and - yes, on both sides of the Grimm's and the critter sides.

JIM KOUF: We're being careful how we...

QUESTION: You call them the critters. Is that how we're supposed...

JIM KOUF: Well, they're called that...

QUESTION: ...what are we supposed to call them.

JIM KOUF: They're called Wesen (unintelligible).

DAVID GREENWALT: (W-E-S-E-N) and that's all the different creatures - all the different Grimm creatures are called Wesen. But people don't know that so I call them critters.

QUESTION: Can you spell that again?

DAVID GREENWALT: W-E-S-E-N, and it's pronounced (Vesen).

QUESTION: Well, that gives us a name to call them other than the bad guys or the creatures.

DAVID GREENWALT: Right. But they're not all bad. Some of them are good.

QUESTION: That's very true.

Now you both of course got a history of working in genre TV. Is that something you favor in your own personal viewing habits? What do you guys watch?

DAVID GREENWALT: I watch - we watch ourselves going to sleep at night after a long, hard day.

JIM KOUF: We like (John Stewart).

QUESTION: So no time for TV for you guys then, right?

JIM KOUF: Not really.

DAVID GREENWALT: Not much these days.

QUESTION: I'm really loving the dynamic between Nick and Monroe. I find it so entertaining and so funny. Now did you guys always know that they'd have such chemistry, or was that kind of a pleasant surprise?

JIM KOUF: It was a pleasant surprise as we created the character in the pilot. We knew that we could - if they gave us a series we could really do something with that relationship.

DAVID GREENWALT: And we knew Monroe would be a regular from the get go.

QUESTION: So what's next for these two? Will we see Monroe giving Nick Pilate's lessons or anything?

JIM KOUF: We'll see them helping one another, you know, and sometimes Monroe will even come to Nick for help.

QUESTION: ...Someone asked about the danger that Monroe seems to be in. And Nick and Juliette also seem to be in danger. Do you think this is all going to come to a head as the season comes to a close? Or...



JIM KOUF: It is.

DAVID GREENWALT: It is. And bad things are going to keep happening to them as they try to live their lives.

JIM KOUF: This will be a many-headed beast.

QUESTION: Music seems to be a pretty powerful asset with this show. It always fits the scene, and then of course there's those stand out moments like "Sweet Dream" in the pilot and the dance music in the episode with the rats.

So as Executive Producers, how important do you find it that the element of music is involved? And is it something we'll continue to hear?



DAVID GREENWALT: We loved music. We have a great composer, Rick Marvin and we get terrific songs when we need them. The ones you mentioned.

And we loved that episode with the rats where we had classical and techno music in the same episode. We thought that was kind of neat.

QUESTION: The show has a great fan base that is really loving this show and letting people know what they love about the show. So do you listen to what they're saying as you know, a congratulation and a compliment, or as something to keep in mind and consider from moving forward and determining what they react best to?

JIM KOUF: Well, we listen to everything they say.

DAVID GREENWALT: Yes. We try to do all of the above, you know, and see what people are responding to and what people are liking.

SCIFI VISION: On Eddie, do you think that maybe as he becomes more connected with Nick that maybe the other community will shun him totally and effect his effectiveness to help out Nick?

JIM KOUF: No. Because not all the Wesen are bad, so some will think what he's doing is actually a good thing.

DAVID GREENWALT: But he will have to pay for his sins.


DAVID GREENWALT: And there are the powers that be that will not - (unintelligible) upon him.

SCIFI VISION: Yes. I was just kind of wondering on that because it's like, "How do you help him destroy the rest of us?" So...

Also, is [Nick] really the last Grimm or could there be a hidden descendant that could step up? Like maybe to help with your Dirty Dozen creature reappearance?


JIM KOUF: Oh, no. There will be more.

DAVID GREENWALT: There are other Grimm's in the world. They're - it's a rare thing, but there are other Grimm's in the world, and...

SCIFI VISION: On his line? Wasn't he the...

DAVID GREENWALT: In his line? Well, they're all descendent from the Brothers Grimm. But yes, there may be somebody even in his line.

SCIFI VISION: A little hidden child.

Any designs maybe to do some graphic novels just to fill in some back story? I know some shows are kind of doing graphic novels to fill in some of the back stories so - because they can't (unintelligible)?

DAVID GREENWALT: (Unintelligible). You know, young adult novels. Graphic novels. We hope video games.

JIM KOUF: Yes. We hope to fill in the back story on the show.

QUESTION: Believe it or not, I had never watched an episode of Supernatural until the recent event casting - stunt casting -- call it what you will -- of Monster and Charisma in the same episode.

So I was wondering if there's any chance of, any possible of a Buffy-verse event casting in Grimm's future such that would compel even reluctant viewers such as I was to Supernatural to just have to give you a chance? Because now I'm a Supernatural fan. Been watching it every day on TNT and everything trying to catch up because they did in their seventh season.

So I was just thinking maybe if you did it early you could secure a renewal or such?

DAVID GREENWALT: Well we certainly have Amy Acker coming in February in a couple of weeks to play a - kind of a Black Widow like you've never seen before. And you know, I'd love - I mean, I'd love to work with Charisma again and any of the old gang. And when there's an appropriate part, you know, we would definitely make that choice.

QUESTION: Well perhaps paired with Amy - I had read that [Anthony Head] lead the Comic-Con panel for Grimm this past year. If he can...

DAVID GREENWALT: Yes. We'd love to have (Tony) - we've actually been thinking of what - how we could get (Tony) into the show if he'd want to do it. We've actually thought quite a bit about that.

QUESTION: One last casting question, or more of a plea. I'm just a massive fan of Jamie Ray Newman, and so I would lobby you guys to bring her (Angelina) character back as often as possible.

DAVID GREENWALT: Well, there's a reason she went off into the night, you know.

JIM KOUF: We didn't kill her.

QUESTION: Syfy Channel is also an NBC Universal network, and they have a show called Face Off which focuses on creature design and makeup. And I was wondering if your two shows might have some sort of cross over deal that allows one of the creatures that you guys would oversee being designed on Face Off become part of your show?


DAVID GREENWALT: You know, anything is possible. You know, we're so busy with just getting the creatures into the show you know as they are and with our great Edward Irastorza and all the people who design and build these terrific looking monsters.

But you know maybe down the road somewhere, that would be a good idea.

QUESTION: Out of all the episodes you guys have shot so far, is there one that you found especially challenging perhaps to pull off from a production standpoint would you say?

JIM KOUF: All of them.

DAVID GREENWALT: All of them. There is a couple coming in February sweeps here. One - it's called - one is called "The Last Grimm Standing" and it's coming in about three weeks and change, which is a...

JIM KOUF: It was a monster to shoot.

DAVID GREENWALT: A monster to shoot. A monster to write. It's a gladiatorial kind of big fighting episode, and our great team in Portland just pulled out all the stops for that one.

QUESTION: The look of the show - again, someone else has already mentioned it. The look - shooting in Portland is giving - it's almost like when they shot The X-Files in Vancouver, it gave it its own unique look. And Portland, you guys did a great job picking that place.

JIM KOUF: Yes. Well we've always - it was actually our first choice.

QUESTION: Right. Well, well worth it. Well worth it.

JIM KOUF: Yes, we agree.

QUESTION: I was wondering perhaps if you could tell us a little bit about casting the Nick character and finding David to fit those shoes.

JIM KOUF: It wasn't easy.

DAVID GREENWALT: We saw a lot of people.


DAVID GREENWALT: It's a hard guy to find as you know in television - a guy in that age range who is kind of fresh faced and new, and yet seems to have - you know, has all the talent and the work history to be able to...

JIM KOUF: That can shoulder it.

DAVID GREENWALT: ...shoulder a whole show like that.

And we've just been so lucky with this cast. They're all really, really good and really fantastic people.

JIM KOUF: And very nice people.

DAVID GREENWALT: We've been blessed.

QUESTION: Sort of picking up on a lot of what a lot of people have been talking about with the cameos from Buffy-verse. I heard that you have Azura Skye coming on the show.


QUESTION: Can you tell us a little bit about that?

DAVID GREENWALT: Yes. She plays a bird-like creature with many hidden talents and gifts. And she - Nick and Juliette are trying to get out of town, get away from all the madness and they end up helping...

JIM KOUF: Helping madness.

DAVID GREENWALT: ...with more madness and helping her in her life.

QUESTION: When is this episode going to air? Is that sort of more of a later down in the season?

DAVID GREENWALT: That's a little down the line. That's probably April.

JIM KOUF: We start shooting it (unintelligible)...

QUESTION: I know you guys had sort of a trial on Thursday nights and you did pretty well. If NBC asks you to change nights, would you? I mean, you're doing pretty well on the Friday night slot.

DAVID GREENWALT: Well it's a very interesting the way our life works. If Mr. Greenblatt says you're changing nights, we say, "Yes sir."

But I think rightly so, and certainly we have lobbied, we love this 9:00 Friday slot. It's the old The X-Files slot. It's the right place to be. We're doing a good number, and I think they have no plans to move us that we certainly know of at this point.

QUESTION: I just had a quick question about Russell Hornsby. I love that actor and I loved him when he was on ABC Family. How did you go about casting him as Hank Griffin?

DAVID GREENWALT: He was the best guy who came in and we had a lot of great guys that came in and read for that role, but Russell was - there's something really special, really cool but warm at the same time about Russell. And we just fell in love and he - you know, he won it in the casting process.

JIM KOUF: Yes. He brings an authority to the role which is great.


An ease and authority. And we've got some really cool stuff coming for him, and he's - his world is going to get rocked by a woman.

QUESTION: Will it be the creature that he does not know is a creature?

DAVID GREENWALT: Say it again? Will he see the creature that he does not know is a creature?

QUESTION: No. Like a creature that he does not know is a creature? The one that the Captain set him up with?


QUESTION: I like the current formula where you currently have a covert reveal of the monster at the beginning of the episode. But, will you eventually change that or actually have a human as the perpetrator for the crime?

DAVID GREENWALT: Well, we did it initially in the episode last week in this "Of Mouse and Man" in which the man, not the mouse, was the perpetrator of the crime. So - but you know, we'll do all kinds of different things. And sometimes there'll be a good - what we call a Wesen. You know, a good creature. And sometimes yes - sometimes the bad people are just normal humans and it's the Wesen or the Grimm creatures who are in trouble. We'll mix it up.

QUESTION: I love (unintelligible), and I love his originality. I think he's heard almost of us say that. But do you ever watch Once Upon A Time and hope for or a fake cross your fingers that they won't cover a similar story right before you cover it? Or that they...

DAVID GREENWALT: You know, we don't really have time. We're not watching any other shows. We - you know, we're kind of living here in the office and doing this show. And you know, we wish them the best and we wish ourselves the best.

And you know, I think there may be some fairy tale characters that are similar, but our - the shows are so incredibly different that I don't think it matters.

QUESTION: I presume you've heard about the Beauty and the Beast thing that's going on with a few pilots (unintelligible) given green light from ABC and CW?


GrimmQUESTION: ...I'll take them all. I'll take every single one of the fantasies (unintelligible) want to put on as long as it's written well like yours is. But from your standpoint, is that a good, more the merrier good thing, or does it kind of dilute the pool?

JIM KOUF: I don't think it really matters.

DAVID GREENWALT: I think it's a neutral move or something like - because like you say, the - you know if a show is good is what matters. The rest doesn't really you know matter.

JIM KOUF: Yes. Our job is to keep the writing strong and the shows strong, and hopefully we're delivering good entertainment every week. So that's our job.

QUESTION: What's been the biggest challenge and what's the most fun about this show for each of you?

JIM KOUF: The biggest challenge is producing the shows because we're writing actually what we feel are movies that they're producing on a TV schedule. So hats off to our production team in Portland who actually is you know given the task of making these things, and they're difficult. They're physically challenging to make. That's the hardest part.

The most fun for me is the mythology that we're getting into and the chance to explore some fun stuff coming up.

DAVID GREENWALT: And for me the most challenging thing is to get to the office before noon. And the most exciting thing is seeing these shows on television and when they come out really good and they really work, and they're dark and psychological and kind of funny. And that feels very satisfying and encourages me to get up in the morning and get in and work with Jim.

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